Do you have to follow Islam to design a mosque? I don't mean as a rule, but more your opinion about it. 'Cause for my final project I'm designing an islamic centre (including a mosque) but I've notice here in Holland that around the Islamic society they're convinced that you have to be a follower of Islam to design a mosque. What is your opinion?
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Do you have to be Islamic to design a mosque?
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I would say that not being Muslim would be a benefit. At least you will not feel tied and bound by what has been built in the past nor will you be weighed down with cultural baggage that makes the majority of mosques built in the West really horrible.
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Do you have to be Islamic to design a mosque?
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You don't need to be Muslim to design a mosque, any more
than you need to be Jewish to design a synagogue or Christian
to design a church. If you are looking for precedents in other
religions, you might consider the "Alte Synagoge" in Essen, Germany.
It is one of the largest synagogues in Germany (now a museum) and
was designed by an architect who was not Jewish. Information in
german and english can be found at
www.essen.de/english/Leben_E/Kultur_E/Kultur_E.htm. It will also show up
in most books about German synagogues, if you look it up in
the library.
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Do you have to be Islamic to design a mosque?
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I would say the answer to your question is that a non Muslim could design a mosque. As you may or may not be aware that there is difference between Islamic teachings and how Muslims behave (usually due to cultural reasons). So are the mosques that are being built in the west there to serve an Islamic or Cultural function? With this problem in mind what is the secret of designing a good mosque?
In my onion a mosque should be a functional and working building. Who and what define the functions. The Qur`an and Hadith (the hadith being a documented evidence of the Prophets, actions and saying). It is perfectly reasonably for a Non Muslims to study this text and derive a brief for a mosque. A brief derived from this method would result in a modern mosque and not one defined and restrained by culture. Remember that when early Muslims where building mosques, the domes and minarets where functional items. The domes allowing greater spans, in prayer halls, the taller minarets enabling the voice of the call to prayer to travel further. Early Muslim architects where building functional buildings. They were also high-tech architects as well. The materials and the resources that they had to hand, would be pushed to the limits. If the architects who built the grand mosques that adorn the Muslim world, had the technology and building materials that are available to modern architects, I am sure they would not hesitate in putting these to use. To sum up, the person most suited to design a mosque in the 21st century is somebody who has not studies Islamic architecture and never even seen a mosque, but that person is well aware of all the functional requirements of a mosque.
A good web site to visits to demonstrate the technology of Muslim architects and engineers is http://www.muslimheritage.com/.
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Do you have to be Islamic to design a mosque?
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Salam Chrlotte I hope that you understand French because my English is not very good So, Pour concevoir une mosuée faut-il être musulman? Si j'ai bien compris telle était votre question. D'après ma connaissance, et pour être très pragmatique, certains pys musulmans axigent la pratique de la religion pour la conception d'une mosquée chez eux. Je trouve cela très légitime, mais je pense qu'il faut plus être exigent avec la compréhension de la religion et des prescriptions du fiqh se rapportant à toutes les étapes et les états de la prière pour pouvoir offrir aux fidèles un espace adéquat pout leur pratique religieuse et sociale. Car il ne faut pas oublier que la mosquée est aussi un haut lieu de sociabilité pour la communauté musulmane. Par ailleurs, en Europe notamment, un certain nombre de mosquées a été conçu par des non musulmans, je pense à la grande mosquées réalisée par Calatrava. Donc cela dépend des pays en fait. Je t'invite à consulter un numéros des rencotres de l'Aga khan sur le sujet du religieux dans l'architecture et notamment l'article de Rassim Bdran à ce sujet Bon courage!!!
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Do you have to be Islamic to design a mosque?
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Salam Charlotte. I know an example of a mosque that was built by a non-Muslim architect (it is the mosque of the University of Bahrain. The architect is Kenzo Tange, this mosque is in a way difficult for Muslims to use because it is circular mosque and a circular mosque can not function well because a mousqe should have an oriantation to kibla and as we all know that a circle does not have an orientation, How can we know the kibla wall if it is a circle ?
That example showed to us that the architect should study how Muslims pray and study the mosque architecture. However, he/she does not have to be a Muslim .
But there is a problem; in Islam there is a rule that a non-Muslim person cannot enter a Mosque, to Muslims a mosque is Allah's home (sacrad place).
Sorry for my weak english :)
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Do you have to be Islamic to design a mosque?
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Duha, your point is well taken. Any architect should know the requirements of a building and how users will engage a space. I would like to add that while some mosques may be restricted to non-Muslims, especially during prayer times, it is not the case for many mosques. In Cairo, Esfahan, and Delhi for instance, many of the working mosques are open during non-prayer times to visitors. I do not agree that the mosque is a sacred place. The distinction between the sacred and profane is not one that Islam makes.
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Do you have to be Islamic to design a mosque?
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To Duha al Madhoob, Apart from the Harams of Mecca and Medina, There is nothing in Islamic Law that forbids Non-Muslims from going to the mosque. please quote from Quran or hadith if you know of such a ruling. Just study how the early muslims used the first mosque that was built at Medina. Prayers was just one of the activities and functions. It would also be used by the Prophet (pbuh) to host muslim and non-muslim delegations, amongst a wealth of other activities. The Mosque was the focal point of the community, an integral part of the daily routine of an islamic city, there being no distiction between relegion, politics and economics.
Your point on the mosque in bahrain is well taken, But I would blame the advisor/client/breif and not the architect. If the architect is non-muslim, the client should at least study the design. Regents park mosque in London is designed by a non muslim.
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Do you have to be Islamic to design a mosque?
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I don't think that it is necessary to be a Muslim to design a mosque, but the important thing is that you reflect the idealogy of Islam in your design. Mosque architecture is differenrt in different cultures but they reflect the basic concept that is the space to offer prayers and i think this is the key.
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Do you have to be Islamic to design a mosque?
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Thanks for all the responses, this site helps me a lot with my graduation project. Especially cause in Holland I'm getting a 1-way view of how to deal with the islamic architecture & culture.
A view answers / questions: What is meant by "the mosques in the west are to serve an islamic / cultural function?" In my opinion it would be both: I'm designing an islamic cultural centre, where a mosque, youthcentre, hamam, expositions & info about islam, congresroom, rooms for courses are all holded in 1 building. It's my idea to stimulate the integration more and in the same time give the muslims in holland there own space. (the first also by reaching out to the muslimwoman, who are mostly forgotten but who are also THE connection towards a better integration, but that's another discussion)
So isn't it better to design it as a non-muslim; not being resticted by religious/cultural backgrounds and most of all being bound by the image from the old-fairytale-like-mosque-backhome, that muslims in the west have ( a dream that they have from how good /prefect it is in there homecountry, but why did they move to the west....yes cause it wasn't that perfect)So my job is to show those people that the feeling they have with the old mosques can be created in a different way as well. All the characteristics a mosque has, can be interpertid in another (western) way, that creates a new image by the old typology of the mosque. Just what is said aswell; the dome / minaret were used as an functional thing, if this function is not necesarry nowadays in the west, why use it? (FORM FOLLOWS FUNCTION...) Just look at all the examples in the west of beautiful churches designed by famous architects like Ito, Siza, Le Corbusier,Holl etc. Those buildings aren't the typical old churches that we know from history. They are all interpertations of a church in modern times and designed for specific places.
I agree also with the example of the Bahrain-mosque; just cause I'm not an muslim doesn't mean that I don't respect the 'rules & habbits' of the islam! On the conterrary: something like a Kibhla; an orientation to Mecca is for me as architect a challenge to deal with and to see new ways of designing. So taking the problem away by designing a round mosque is not only taking the direction away, but also the challenge of an architect and the interresting about the building!
As a last comment: There was something mentioned in the french text about a mosque designed by Calatrava, but I couldn't find this anywhere, does anybody knows something more?
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Do you have to be Islamic to design a mosque?
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You should also look to the churches designed by Tadao Ando. These churches seem to be religiously neutral, but have a deep spirituality about them. Ronchamp would be as beautiful a mosque as a church.
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Do you have to be Islamic to design a mosque?
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I do not think that you have to be "Islamic" to design a mosque. However general knowledge of the faith would go a long way in fulfilling the desired result.
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Do you have to be Islamic to design a mosque?
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What does it mean by being Islamic? Is it being a Muslim?
Whatever the case may be, it is best if we refer to the Al Quraan to understand a building which has been so misunderstood even by "Mulims".
Allah says
[9:107] And there are those who put up a mosque by way of mischief and infidelity - to disunite the Believers - and in preparation for one who warred against Allah and His Messenger aforetime. They will indeed swear that their intention is nothing but good; But Allah doth declare that they are certainly liars.
How sure are we that we are not causing disunity by building mosques? If we do not scrutinize this matter, then we're undoubtedly another agent of disunity.
If this is the case, the mosque may even be irrelevant as the presence in the mosque is prohibited by the Almighty:
[9:108] Never stand thou forth therein. There is a mosque whose foundation was laid from the first day on piety; it is more worthy of the standing forth (for prayer) therein. In it are men who love to be purified; and Allah loveth those who make themselves pure.
Wassalam.
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Do you have to be Islamic to design a mosque?
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I think we all learned back in arch. school that to design anything correctly, we have to understand how it functions, how activities and space corelate, and weave the building we are creating, A mosque is no exeption, but there is and added point that you will find in any religious building: that is that places of worship have an air of their own, they feel different, or at least they should, for example in churches, visual effects and icons and ornamentations are used heavily, to help elevate the person's feel of the place, the same techniques do not apply to mosques, you see: as differant religions have differant ways to render God. Whats right and whats wrong? This differance in rendering surley applies itself to how their places of worship look and feel. So in other words, if the architect can render any item correctly, then the architect anderstands that item and feels it correctly, in case of a mosque, knowing what Islam is all about, "and I do mean the philosophy behind Islam" will lead to a corect design of a mosque. And, in any case, if you understand Islam CORRECTLY, you propably are a Muslim even if you are not!! :0) "and God Knoweth" ps: Good Luck Charlotte.
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Do you have to be Islamic to design a mosque?
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It is an interesting debate / discussion!! As far as I understand there is no rule as to who designs a mosque. A mosque is the outcome of the need for a Muslim to pray as a group and who would know better than a Muslim what are the basic needs and ethics for a mosque!!!
I would also be interested to know the reference about not allowing Non muslims inside a mosque?
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Do you have to be Islamic to design a mosque?
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Many Muslims today don't understand Islam, its ethics, or its inner beauty. They have reduced it to a series of dogmattic rituals and laws without understanding the essence of Islam. Its no wonder that contemporary mosque design is so awful.
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Do you have to be Islamic to design a mosque?
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I think that real architecture is rather than a building design you must feel and live the behavior of the users to design a building that can work with the user as a team. That is why if anyone would like to design a mosque he will not feel the sense of Muslims if he was not a Muslim and when we take a look to the history we will see that is the greatest mosques designed by Muslims and the greatest cathedral designed by Christians and that is the equation.
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Do you have to be Islamic to design a mosque?
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Mr. Muafak here has put it quite clearly, even though he just had to use CAPS :0), and as far as I know there is no rule agianst non-Muslims building anything for Muslims, and as far as I know, there is no rule against non-Muslims (or anyone for that matter) entering a mosque, as long as he/she is covered correctly, and does not disturb the prayers.
And yes, many Muslims now horribly Misunderstand Islam, and yes they have reduced it into a set of radical rules, that hardly have anything to do with what Islam is really about, and if we take that last statement into reference with what we know about the effect buildings have on poeple/users and vice versa, the argument about contemporary mosques being so ugly and ecletic and totally void of essence, becomes quite an interesting argument!! ps: this is a pretty nice discussion!! :0)
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Do you have to be Islamic to design a mosque?
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Like many who have replied before me, I agree that you do not necessarily have to be a Muslim (if that's what you mean by Islamic) to design a mosque. I think you should research thoroughly for your understanding of Mosque liturgy and draw upon 'authentic' references - this will give you a basic set of essential design/brief requirements. From there on, the design will need to draw upon the immediate environment and context so as to provide a Mosque that is both 'correct' in function, but also responsive to the society it serves.
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Do you have to be Islamic to design a mosque?
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We must not forget that the most of the contemporary mosques which we see around us are not FORMAL designs but are a result of simply 'making their place for prayer nice' by the local people. The designs which results in this way are generally a combination of different elements and features from sources /places as perceived by them. These designs may look awful but again they give a local touch to the building, ofcourse adding extravagant elements and features is definitely a waste (maybe againt true Islamic spirit)!!
A true Mosque can be a very simple place/structure which fulfils the basic requirement of prayer and it need not be anything more than that - all the elaborate decoration may not be necessary and is excessive.
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Do you have to be Islamic to design a mosque?
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Maja is right. The plurality of ideas that influenced the architecture and art that is normally called "Islamic architecture" was a result of many influences from past civilizations that were Christian, Jewish, and especially Greek. This diversity is a strength not a weakness. It is only when one gets caught up in the surface qualities of the rituals and not the esoteric meaning behind the rituals that differences such as Muslim/non-Muslim start to creep in.
I am not a Koranic scholar, but it seems that the Koran says that both men and women must dress modestly in times of prayer. We can question and decide for ourselves what modesty means. That is why man has been given an intellect, the greatest gift according to the Koran, so that he can read and interpret the text. We dont need other Muslims telling us what is wrong and right, how to behave, when to go to mosque, and how we must feel towards others. There is no compulsion in religion (again from the Koran). I would urge those that are interested in Muslims taking responsibility for their failings and the decline in their civilisations to read the following books:
1. Conference of the Books, the Search for Beauty in Islam, by Khalid Abou el Fadl 2. Taking back Islam, by Micheal Wolfe
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Do you have to be Islamic to design a mosque?
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The real essence of various religious activities which are performed in a mosque are well known to a muslim than others. I believe a muslim architect may not be able to design a Church better than a Christian or a Temple better than a Hindu. The mosque is not a place for prayers only, it is also a place from where a muslim learns his way of life. An architect from any other religion may not be knowing the teachings of our last Prophet Muhammad (PEACE BE UPON HIM). To design a mosque one needs to know the Islamic principles to design a mosque, those have been mentioned in Quran and Hadith.If you really wish to design a mosque as a project you need to know a detailed knowledge of Quran and Hadith.
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Do you have to be Islamic to design a mosque?
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hi, i don't think so, cause architcts must normaly responde to any kind of projects, the necessery is that each project be based on an theoric seach, studies about the site, history and sociology...the mosques in west islamic's contries haven't the same formes, architctures as east ones.... each people have tham caracters so the urbanism and architecure just traduce the civilisation and cutums on forms.... good luck
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Do you have to be Islamic to design a mosque?
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I had the opportunity to work on a similar project in canada and it was a learning experience for the non-muslim architects who participated in the project design. I advice you that you involve an external advisor who is a muslim and is an architect at the same time. I would be willing to review your masjid plans and give comments via email
Adnan Adas Prof of architecture College of Environemtal Design King Abdulaziz university Jeddah Saudi Arabia aaadas@kaau.edu.sa
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Do you have to be Islamic to design a mosque?
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i think we should not be restricted to old islamic designs new designs should be introduced as are being introduced in SPAIN AND England . but necessary islamic measures should be taken care of
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Do you have to be Islamic to design a mosque?
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A very interesting debate! A a pertinent question by Charlotte. I say pertinent because a lot of people ask this question.
Way back in '91, when I was in the second year of B.Arch degree program, We were given a project to design a mosque. But one of the students in our class protested that as he did not believe in religions and was not a Muslim, he would not take up the project! He asked the teachers to change the project! It took the faculty a lot of effort to convince him that one's religion has nothing to do with designing a mosque. I think this answers your question.
Similarly, does one need to be a doctor to design a hospital? or be a teacher to design a school? I think religions, cultures or professions are no barriers for architects. A qualified architect, in my opinion, is capable of, and can design any type of building anywhere in the world!
Regards,
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Do you have to be Islamic to design a mosque?
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What about the opposite, Do you have to be a protestant or a catholic to design a church? I do agree with most of the previous interesting postings. YOU DO NOT HAVE TO!
I am currently involved in the development of a Master Plan for a United Methodist Church in Rock Hill, South Carolina. It is an extension of an exisiting large scale church. The new extension includes fellowship areas, chidren chapel, sunday school classes, a youth ministry, and pre and elementary school, and several other spaces.
As well, the Master Plan involves renovation and remodelling of the exisitng choir spaces, administration, and a space utilization and reallocation for the consolidation of other worship classes.
One had to understand what are the activities that take place in a united methodist church. In order to develop the programmatic requirements, a specific process was devised to get information from the church administration and the users. The process included information gathering about current functions, activity schedules, future growth needs, wish lists, and assumptions about growth options. When the master plan is finally developed and presented to the church board and congregation, perhaps it can be posted here.
I believe if the architect is able to comprehend the activities of a mosque or a church, or a temple, and is able to articulate a process by which a complete understanding of the building nature, functions, and activities are grasped, a responsive design is the result.
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Do you have to be Islamic to design a mosque?
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regretting all do i have to be a chirstian to design a cathedral....is there any example when other religions hav allowed to deign there rligious bldgs. by muslim..dont think so... AND YES ONLY MUSLIMS SHUD DESIGN / REUSE A MOSQUE, as was done Hagi Sophia mosque in Turkey. non muslims cud never know the sanctity of different aspects and function and steps taken for the preparation of Salaat... Charlotte, i m again very confident, non muslims cannot design a real mosque, as mosques are design with spirit with love of Almighty and with pure soul having the essence of Islam and love of Our Prophet...no one else
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Do you have to be Islamic to design a mosque?
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The example is above, Sahar. Your response was posted seconds after mine.
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Do you have to be Islamic to design a mosque?
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Dear Sahar, correction in your posting. Hagia Sofia was designed by the Byzantines as a church in 6th Century AD. It was the pride of christiandom for centuries, till the Ottomans captured Constantinople and converted into a mosque to prove a political point. It remained a mosque till 1923, when Mustafa Kemal Ataturk had it converted into a museum.
It is worth noting here that most of the grand buildings of Istanbul were designed keeping Hagia Sofia in mind and all the Ottoman architects, including Sinan, took inspiration from - and tried to outdo - the grand design of Hagia Sofia.
If you compare the Ottoman Mosques with Hagia Sofia, you will realise that they are very similar in planning and in structural systems.
I disagree with you that a non-muslim cannot design a mosque. This arguement is discrimanatory and is typical of the myopic interpretation of Islam that we have seen lately under the Taliban and the Saudis. Refer to Mr. Allibhai's posting in this regard.
Regards,
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Do you have to be Islamic to design a mosque?
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To be more specific, refer to Mr. Allibhai's posting of 30th November 2002 in this thread. It describes a typical mindset of certain muslims.
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Do you have to be Islamic to design a mosque?
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I agree with you Mr. Husain. I just to want to draw your attention to the fact that "generalization" is also discriminatory, and involves stereotyping.
Best regards, A-
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Do you have to be Islamic to design a mosque?
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In my earlier posting, I forgot to mention--to lighten up the discussion-- that Frank Senatra said in the fifties "If you can make it there, you can make it anywhere..." This tell a lot about what we are discussing here!
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Do you have to be Islamic to design a mosque?
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Thanks Dr Salama. I know what you mean. One should refrain from what a diplomat friend of mine calls 'sweeping statements' or 'general statements'
And yes, I think Frank Sinatra's song sums it up well!
regards,
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Do you have to be Islamic to design a mosque?
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dear all, Dr. salama , hammad mosque of byzantine architecture was transformed, i quoted the transformation...and as for dr. salama's example well its a news for me and very inspiring, design is a challenge bestowed upon every architect irrespective of building typology. what our fellow architect asked was about the response she was confronting by society...well designing means a study of prototype edifices, as for fuctionality. and here comes my view. WE by principle dont allow non muslims in OUR religious centers and mosques. but if anyone does its matter of the custodians and people there... what i answered was on the basis of Islam...it was not according to my limited knowledge...what charlotte can do is to ask help from any muslim friend there ... and dear fellows, mosque design was as per shariah has to be done ba-wazu, clean and washed as done before offering salaat.... well good luck to charlotte, its nice to explore Islamic edifices....this is a religion for all times all regions, mosques have a variant vocabulary, focussed on pricples, diversified as per regions....thanx to all
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Do you have to be Islamic to design a mosque?
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Dear Sahar, when you say mosque of Byzantine Architecture, I'm sure you mean the CHURCH of Byantine Architecture. The Byzantines never made mosques!!
You have also made a generalised statement: "WE by principle dont allow non muslims in OUR religious centers and mosques."
I dont know what you mean by WE, but at least in Turkey, Malaysia and Pakistan, non-muslims can enter any mosque any time of the day except during prayer time.
"mosque design was as per shariah has to be done ba-wazu, clean and washed as done before offering salaat...."
This is news to me. I wonder if the labourers have to perform 'wuzu' before putting each brick... must be very tiring!
Talk about rituals!!
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Do you have to be Islamic to design a mosque?
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MAY BE i might be giving a very isolated response, its just that i discussed few of here they all say its just the few interpretations of faith, they only thing which dominate is the orientation of Qibla, and some of our requirement, I after ur response went to see the books of life of prophet SAW. well definately Christian tribes paid visit at the Prophet's Mosque, and all the people irrespective of religion visited mosque.... what i wrote hammad and all is what i had read in history, of mosque design n construction, my family said its wrong....its a fundamental approach, well when HARAM was been designed, few non muslim professionals were been consulted. I even wrote, its the religion of all time and region, flexible, and humble, the fellow who asked can take it as a matter of study as others study, temples, churches etc...wish her luck to study the Mosque architecture, may be views are very introvert.... i eventually cast my vote to what hammad wrote......
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Do you have to be Islamic to design a mosque?
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hello charlotte i dont think it is really necessary for any one to be a muslim to design mosque but important thing is the involvement , how much interest any one can take in another religion without having his own views and reservations. And how much sincerely u can get involved into the project. So it is better for a surgeon to do the surgery than a doctor. I think u got my point.
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